Tuesday, October 21, 2008
Struggling with God (or lack of God)
So...as I post this I kind of feel like I may sound like a broken record to some of you who may have read my blog...and like no one wants to hear me...but at every turn I feel like I face the same thing. Some days deep inside I have a longing to want to want to love and know God. But most days I don't care. I don't want to acknowledge, think about or talk to Him...I am kind of in the middle between living this christian life, doing the things I know how to do because that's what I've done for so long, and trying to find out who I am right now. I feel like I'm just so lost. I want to relate to someone...hang out with someone, but everywhere I turn, it's someone who I feel like expects me to be a christian, and I'm not sure I am anymore. I think if I told my husband this, he would be really upset...and I feel guilty for the way I feel when I look at my kids, but then I start to think that is just my socialization. I was raised in the church, left it for a while, came back full force and thought I had really experienced God...I wasn't hurt by the church, I think I just began to see things that just didn't exist or make sense...I never saw God do a thing in my own life or in anyone else's...only heard about all of these great things. And, it just seems like a lot of wasted time and energy to me now. I want to care, but I don't. And I'm kind of mad at myself for letting myself believe all of it, but at the same time I'm mad at myself for letting myself get to the place I'm in now. I feel like everything I've ever done/been/been taught is a load of crap, and I don't even know why. I'm not like many friends in this place who've been hurt by the church or those in it...I am not certain why I feel this way, but since church/christianity has been my life for so long, I'm lost now and don't know who I am. I don't know who God is, I don't know how to pray anymore, I don't know how to read the Bible or how to listen for God...but I feel like I should be doing all of these things. I guess, I am curious...why do you believe? What is your relationship like? Have you ever been in my place? Why do you put your energy into God? Why/How is He real to you? If you have never heard god or really experienced Him, why do you still do any of this? I've been asking for a few years now for God to show me who he really is, and to increase my longing for Him, but you know what has happened? I believe in God less now than ever, and I have no desire to know him or find him...and now I'm also angry at him :) If he really is. Part of me, when I think about God, thinks that it's all just a great story that I've heard for so long that it's just part of me...but the other part of me is scared that I'll probably go to hell for thinking that! What are your thoughts? Why would God, if He IS, hide his face? Why would he not show up for someone who is truly curious, truly searching? Why would god not heal someone? Not save someone? Why would he not just talk to us? Why must it all be so mysterious? Why can't he just be clear and plain and not so elusive? Why must it all be so archaic? So creepy? Why doesn't he do the things he says he's gonna do? Why doesn't he do the things he said he used to do? I'm just not really buying it anymore...the fact that maybe it's because we are not good enough christians? Our faith is too weak? We just don't see it when he works? We don't understand it? Then, what in the world is the point?
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Posts
24 comments:
I found your blog via facebook... wow! I don't know you and I really want to encourage you but don't want to say just some empty words...
I had a time in my life similar to what you are talking about and someone said to me, if you slowly drifted away from God and suddenly realize it - that's the first sign God is working in you.
Not so long ago I again struggled about some "christian stuff" and someone in our bible class recommended a book I am actually reading (check my blog if you want, I wrote a post about it).
What else can I say? I experience God the most when I am totally on the ropes and ask Him to take over. He has never let me down - far from it! He has always turned it into something great eventually.
This following is something my hubby found and used on psalm Sunday when we had some friends round to celebrate Easyer this year and it really helped me when I was and still sometimes do struggle with exactly how you feel:
Yes, lose your faith. Lose your
faith in God. For as the French mystic Simone Weil insisted, there is a kind of atheism that is purifying, cleansing us of idols. Lose your faith in the god that the cross exposes as a no-god, a sham god. Lose your faith in the god who is but the product of your projections, fantasies, wishes, and needs, a security blanket or good-luck charm god. Lose your faith in the god who is there to hold your hand, solve your problems, rescue you from your trials and tribulations, the deus ex machina, literally the “machine god”, wheeled out onto the stage in ancient Greek drama, introduced to the plot artificially to resolve its complications and secure a happy ending. Lose your faith in the god who confers upon you a privileged status that is safe and secure. Lose your faith in the god who promises you health, wealth, fulfilment, and success, who pulls rabbits out of hats. Lose your faith in the god with whom your conscience can be at ease with itself. Lose your faith in the god who, in Dennis Potter’s words, is the bandage, not the wound. Lose your faith in the god who always answers when you pray and comes when you call. Lose your faith in the god who is never hidden, absent, dead, entombed. For the “Father who art in heaven” – this week he is to be found in hell – with his Son.
So, yes, lose your faith! For as with life, so with faith: only those who lose it will find it. Or rather may find it. Faith is a risk, and discipleship demands that we learn to live with insecurity and uncertainty, setting out on a journey without a map, with companions who are as lost as we are, following a leader who is always way ahead of us, beckoning mysteriously, “Follow me!”, and then vanishing just as we arrive. God is mystery, ineffable mystery, naming a reality that we know, but the more we know, the more we are forced to un-know and rethink everything we thought we knew.
Very deep I know but essentially organsied religion has put God in a box and we have learnt how we should believe and have realtionship with him. That he is a god of hyper faith, of warm and fuzzies, of the "supernatural" I just dont believe in that kind of god anymore. I think he is far more natural than we think. He is wanting simple realtionship where we hide nothing from him, where there are no rules or formulas and where each situation has a different response as in all realtionships. I dont know if that helps but I also wanted to say that you are not alone in your thoughts and do not have to feel guilty about feeling that way. We have been conditioned to beleive that doubt is evil and wrong when it is infact part of the human condition and God made us so He is aware we feel like that
As for why he hides from us I dont know at it annoys me to and I wish he wouldnt! but it would seem he does.
I think Lou pretty much said what I would say. I have a friend who has been struggling this same way, and what I have told her is simple..."I'm an atheist of THAT God...and (at the risk of being misunderstood), a person has to find God on their own terms or it will never make sense."
I don't necessarily mean everyone has to find God through whatever religion they want (that's another discussion) but for me, I had to get to a point where I investigated being atheist and even checked into following other religions so I knew what DIDN'T work for me. Then I could begin finding what DID work. I had to strip God of everything I had learned about him, and let him add back the things he wanted me to know and believe about him.
In time, I came to believe again that there is a God and that Jesus is the path to him. I then began reconstructing my faith a piece at a time. But I had to allow myself to explore every possibility and know that I was not adopting something simply because it was what I had been told was right...but because it was mine and I owned it for myself.
A relationship with our creator is not supposed to make us miserable, it is supposed to bring life and love and joy. I firmly believe that.
If you are into reading and would like a recommendation, look into Jim Palmer's books 'Divine Nobodies' and especially 'Wide Open Spaces'. If not, that's OK too.
Doubt and questioning are not wrong...they are meant to help direct you into the relationship he wants to have with you. And maybe you will find, for a season or many seasons, that the concept of God doesn't work for you at all, don't fear that. He is able to handle whatever doubt we can dish out. If we strip him of the ability to deal with that in us, then he is not perfect and did not know what he was doing when he created us, and therefore isn't worthy of our following.
I have written a comment and deleted it five times now?? I have gone through what you have described and I will leave it at that.
I want you to know that I will pray for you and you can come over and visit at "bloodtippedears.blogspot.com" any time. If I recommended a book for you to read it would be "Transforming Grace" by Jerry Bridges. If you ask for it at that blog we will send you one for free. I would also recommend going on that site and type in Paul Washer and listen to his sermon titled Regeneration/self denial.
The creepiest thing about this post is that I kept thinking "I wrote this!" because I have said exactly, almost word for word some of these same things to myself. For example:
"I've been asking for a few years now for God to show me who he really is, and to increase my longing for Him, but you know what has happened? I believe in God less now than ever, and I have no desire to know him or find him...and now I'm also angry at him :) If he really is."
I am still not totally sure. I still go back and forth DAILY, sometimes hourly in what I believe. Erin has been a huge help to me by sharing her journey but I am still not convinced completely. I still don't know if he's really there or if people just want him to be there so they believe. Once in awhile...even yesterday...I think "that was God talking to me" but then I wonder if it was really just an emotional moment (I have lots of those!).
I hope you, and I, and others find peace in what we believe. I feel really really guilty right now for even writing this :(
My experience has been this-- I was an agnostic from when I was 14 to about 18. Before then my "god" was a caricature, much like Lou described. He was some genie who was meant to meet all my needs, as I dictated and a god I always had to appease (I was raised in strict and ceremonial Catholicism and the sermons were in Latin?! Looking back that was probably a good thing!) I had prayed to him that my mother wouldn't die of the cancer she was fighting and fought for over two years. I believed for certain he would grant me this request. But he didn't. She died and so my god died with her. Why believe in a cruel, impersonal God? Many awful things continued to happen... I was afraid. I didn't know him and didn't care until I reached the end of myself at age 19, until I started looking for something real. I met Jesus through reading the bible out of curiosity.... and for the first time I really met God, caught a real taste of love. Then I tried to find organized religion to fit into, and for the most part it really hurt me left me dry, but I could always go back to the Jesus I met who I knew was my friend. Now I know that if things don't make sense to me, it's not because he isn't good, but because he does work in mysterious ways... it's a process.
There are times I do get very mad at him and I don't get him at all. I doubt, rage and fear. We all do it... but he can take it. I lay it out there and he does come through sooner or later, and then I feel like an idiot, but he loves me anyway. I'm not saying he gives me everything I want or think I need, not at all. He gives me love, peace and joy and that's really enough!
Thanks for laying yourself out here... You have some really good questions that need to be asked
I've been in a similar place...and one thing I've taken from it, was how important it is to ask these questions. Without them, how can you build a relationship of faith?
I got to a point of deciding that I would wait until God showed Himself to me...something that would be personal...something I would recognize.
So I waited.
It was a lonely, difficult place of questions and nothing to hold onto...but I met Him there.
He showed me little bits about Him, the Person.
I've given up on religion....don't want anything to do with church or bible studies...and anything like that. But I've found that I DO like Him...He's my friend.
Hope the stories we've shared here will help a little.....
I hear ya Tina
God has been very quiet lately.
It's funny (or maybe not so), but I am seeing this a lot and its not focused around any one area. It seems that there are a lot of people right now who have found God to be very quiet. I'm not sure what it is.
I can't say that he is really quiet around me because He normally has to scream at me to get through my thick skin.
At any rate, I am praying for you.
Sometimes the quietness of God will test our faith.. NOt that God is testing our faith but in essence can we still love God when we don't feel him or see him or hear from him? Can I still have a long distance relationship and stay faithful.. I also sense a quietness and an emptiness within my soul, a longing with no fulfillment but from here, i have to make a decision, so I stand firm in this or will I wither? Do I fight the good fight of faith or will I faint?
In essence, Lou, can I quote your comment on my blog? because those words are perfect!
In essence, you are Human and your feelings are validated, why would the Jesus himself and those in the bible say, "keep fighting" "stand firm" "wear the helmet of salvation and the breastplate of righteousness and the armour of God" why would the bible warn us against fainting? because Job himself said that God had smited him.. if you read psalms you can see many had felt like you do!!! You are human and still loved by God regardless of what you feel or think!
I have just one thing to say.. You Are Loved! I cannot come up with anything more than what I have said here, You are Dearly Loved no matter what you feel or think about God. His love is unconditional - Agape Love. Start seeing yourself in His eyes!
When I say quiet I am responding to what wanting more has said ...
"Why would god not heal someone? Not save someone? Why would he not just talk to us? Why must it all be so mysterious? Why can't he just be clear and plain and not so elusive?"
These things are true for our time ... as I sit here with an impossible situation with my son ... I'm sure something will work out for us but in 14 years of asking for his healing it has not been granted to us.
Is this the time of delusion coming upon us?
Is this the time of huge doubt brought on by the prevalent atheistic thought?
Is this the time that Christ talked about... "Will I find faith on the earth when I return?"
These are serious questions from our sister.
and I have to agree with her that overall God has been very quiet in our nations ...
do we really know why?
i see what you are saying in term of quiet.. and the mysterious and wanting God to just be more available.. I don't know why this is but i know for myself I have to not lean on my own understanding.
I am deaf in my right ear, I could want healing but if God never heals me then that's okay with me. I for many years went up for healing with serious disspointment.. thinking, did God love me? but can I still love God with this? cAn I still have faith even though I suffered dissapointment? I certainly would love to hear properly but at the end of the day I will, in heaven! I suffer here but I have a greater hope that I cling to. That is why pastors upset me because they preach that christianity is all roses and butterflies when in fact following Jesus is a tough call.. it is not always easy and perfect.. more often it is a cross to bear with suffering at times.. that is where preachers get it wrong. Christinianity comes with a serious price of affliction, persecution and most of all the devil hates us and will do whatever it takes.. so life requires faith! Life is difficult! I cannot speak for anyone else's situation and I cannot say I totally understand because I probably dont but I can speak from my own life.. life sucks sometimes.. I have bills to pay, just bearly able to make it.. I have family that is sick and hurt and suffering and it requires faith to make it through another day.
if you are sugesting end of days? I don't know but I am sure we are close to it? it could be tomorrow or another hundred years.. but the world aint' looking so good and there is a quietness and a strangeness to things these days!
I was reading through the posts again, and something a dear friend of mine said to me came to mind.
This friend is one person who hears God alot, clearly, and loudly.
But he told me that he had learned something in order to hear God this way....he learned that we humans often ask questions, and then base our opinions on whether we recieve the answers we were looking for. For example....heal me, God, then I'll know that you really care for me/approve of me.
My friend told me to start asking different questions.
Instead of asking for healing all the time (and yes, I've had chronic ailments, so I know) ask Him to tell me how much He loves me.
Ask Him what He thinks of my kids. Ask Him to tell me what is on His heart today.
That changed everything for me.
I stopped sitting in a dysfunctional view of God...and started a real relationship. You see, He really loves to show us His heart, for us, and for the others around us.
But He seems to wait to be asked...
So, hope this helps a tiny bit...
God will allow us to be disillusioned with every caricature of Himself so we eventually find the real God.
To getting there, yes you may quote me on your blog :) they are not my words though they are of some 1600 French philosopher dont know his name.
I really agree that we expect God to answer out prayers with Yes and Amen and that when he doesnt we think he hasnt answered.
As for him being quiet I agree but also wonder if we are all being too loud to hear, This world is so full of nosie and if you are anything like me so is your head. I wonder if we truly learnt to meditate on Him and his words would we here is voice very clearly?
I also want to say that you are loved by your creator. That he does not judge you for doubting
I will continue to pray for you
kari, those are some penetrating questions you have asked. and you know me, i can't resist uncomfortable questions. so give me some time. i will be back with honest answers to each one.
Thanks everyone...it is nice to know that someone else has been there or is still in this place...I am still struggling though, and expect I will be for a long time.
Lou - can I print that out and paste in on my walls? It felt so true, so right.
I've read a lot of books and tried a lot of techniques and things that seem to have worked for others, but I guess I long for more than a solution...I want the answer to the "why?".
I so appreciate all of your input...and understanding and kindness...I like this place! I'd love to hear any of your stories...
Yes of course you can print it out it is not mine anyway. I often read it when I feel a moment of "hyper faith" coming on both that and the niecian (I dont know if that is how you spell it) creed form the basis of what I believe these days
(no time to proofread this, sorry)
why do you believe?
because of my experiences.
What is your relationship like?
breathing. its just...there. its not a "set aside devotional time" or "get down on your knees" kind of thing. it just... IS.
Have you ever been in my place?
of course! it was the place i had to come to before i could start building anything genuine that i could call my own. you've got to burn the other structure down before you can rebuild a new one.
Why do you put your energy into God?
because he gives it right back. and because it is who i have been made to be. it is how i "groove" best with life. when in the groove it just flows through me. in & out & in & out. around and around like a harmonious circle. ever giving/receiving.
Why/How is He real to you?
he speaks to me through concepts and ideas. and he orchestrates circumstances that i cannot see as being mere coincidences on a near daily basis. as well as providing for our needs now that we have been asked to trust him for that. sometimes, only sometimes, does he manifest himself with instructions and words.
If you have never heard god or really experienced Him, why do you still do any of this?
since i have had experiences, i will just use this space to say that i DIDN'T have the experiences that mainline christians said i was supposed to be having. and after 30 years of that i just threw in the towel and decided to get to know god for myself instead of leaving it up to me fulfilling the wishes and doctrinal desires of humans. that's a big fat dead end road as i think you are now discovering?
I've been asking for a few years now for God to show me who he really is, and to increase my longing for Him, but you know what has happened?
this, i believe is a rhetorical question you answered yourself, but i think its as good a place as any to say that i think god brings people to the places they need to be brought in order to let the dead things be burned and stripped away. my process was equally dark, confusing, and painful, but i can see now the necessity of it. there was no other way i would leave the place that was mentally not allowing me to go deeper and allow such prayers to be answered.
this is only the first half, but i've got a daughter ripping up my house who needs breakfast. i shall return to answer the rest. obviously these are only my experiences. no guilt or "shoulding" intended!
alright, kari. sorry about the delay. we've still got some unanswered questions on the table, and i'll try to get to the rest of them here. these seem to be the more abstract questions of the bunch so i'll try to keep this short. (yeah, right.)
Why would God, if He IS, hide his face?
(hopefully you understand when talking about the motives of another being, i can only speculate.) i think, mostly, because we can't handle it. we can't conceive of it. but really, i don't see god's face as hidden, i see my understanding of god as being limited. and as my understandings of him grow (beyond the bounds of evangelical theology) i see him pouring out of the universe more and more in the most unlikely of places. so then i am left to wonder, "is this new? or has he been here all along and i just couldn't recognize it until now?"
Why would he not show up for someone who is truly curious, truly searching?
if he truly DIDN'T show up in any way shape or form, i would guess because he thinks that person better off as an atheist for now. OR god is not showing up in the way that person expects, and so they don't recognize him when he DOES.
Why would god not heal someone?
damn, this is touchy ground for many. so i hope none here take offense or umbridge at what i'm going to say. but i think that many times god doesn't "heal" someone because he doesn't view their infirmity the same way we do. as the father of a 6-year old son with severe cerebral palsey, who is one of the best humans i have ever known, it makes me wonder just what it is to be "broken" and need "healing." zaavan is near perfect in his eternal inner being just the way he is, and i believe it is more than largely in part due to his physical limitations. the same with my father and his stroke. it could be hard to understand how god could "let this happen" to someone who had done his best to serve god his whole life. until you saw the struggle later and the growth that came as a result. (i DO recognize that not all grow through their infirmities and that for some it destroys them instead of builds them. i cannot speak to their experiences.)
Not save someone?
are you speaking of "save" as in "saved"? like salvation? or someone "dangling from a cliff" kind of "save"?
Why would he not just talk to us?
i think he does. i think he really does. i just think, for the most part, we do not know how to hear or respond. it's not normal talking as we might do it to another human on a regular basis. it's more of a heart to heart kind of connection. in that place inside where there are no words. this is what, i believe, causes the most confusion for people. waiting for the booming voice out of heaven, when it's been whispering in your heart the whole time.
Why must it all be so mysterious?
a thing sought after with much struggle and straining and pain is a thing twofold.
1.- it shows that it is something you genuinely want. it's not just a fad for you.
2.- the joy of curiousity satiated. the thrill of discovery. after so much searching to finally have a breakthrough into what you have desired for so long.
Why can't he just be clear and plain and not so elusive?
i think because you wouldn't be nearly as interested. but also because i think god is always moving. out there working. doing new things all the time. we want to believe god is "always the same" and in one sense he is. he is faithful. but that doesn't mean he doesn't change his methodology or the places where he will allow himself to be "found" by you. he's asking us to "follow", not set up camp somewhere to settle forever.
Why must it all be so archaic?
perhaps because he's so ancient he can't avoid archaic coming along as a little collateral damage? but there is something very special for me when i feel the connection between myself and the ancient. as if i stand as a blip in the ever rolling wave on the ocean of time. and though i am only a drop, i am a part of that wave nonetheless. far from being alone in this grand story.
so creepy?
not fully sure what you mean by this...
Why doesn't he do the things he says he's gonna do?
AND
Why doesn't he do the things he said he used to do?
do you have examples for me that you care to discuss? i don't want to run off on a wild tangent here.
I'm just not really buying it anymore...the fact that maybe it's because we are not good enough christians? Our faith is too weak? We just don't see it when he works? We don't understand it? Then, what in the world is the point?
good. i'm glad you're done buying it. who wants to keep wasting their money on bullshit? i can't explain it all to you, but i know exactly how you feel. the construct that built itself up in my mind called "christianity", that i was lead to believe would lead me correctly to what i was seeking, ended up being a dead end. so i'm glad you've reached that point. the biggest change for me was when i began allowing myself to believe the things that were truly on my heart. only then was god able to reveal more of himself to me. when i was willing to love him even when he didn't live up to my expectations of who i thought he should be, or who i was told he should be. when i was willing to love him the way i want to be loved BY him. just as we are. only then did the relatioship grow and blossom.
what i have found, since i have been allowing god out of my limited expectations, is that he is spritely and capricious. grieved and disturbed. fun-loving and mischievous. he doesn't play by the rules and he sure doesn't give a fuck about humanistic authority and procedures.
i think, a lot of the "mysterious ness" and seeming "lack of action" on god's part is due to the fact that he knows how this is going to end. he doesn't need to flex his muscles or show everyone he's got the power. he has it and he knows it. he isn't trying to "prove himself" to anyone.
in the same way as when the disciples asked if jesus was going to overthrow the human goverment to set up the kingdom now. (pretty please?) truth is, there are too many others whom god DOES care about (whether we do or not) still completely hard-wired into the system we want destroyed. someday i believe that will happen, and what a terrible and wonderful day it will be at the same time. but until then, i think we're simply supposed to be aiding in unwiring people. and that takes many forms not described or even allowed in many christian churches across the world.
god has never asked us to be christians. ever.
Thanks Jon, for your input/insight...and some of what you have said I totally agree with...some I am still grappling with. I guess I struggle with loving god unconditionally...because I can't trust him. Sometimes there are bad things that happen that don't really have a good reason/outcome. For me that is true...so, that is most of my struggle...the rest just comes from trying to follow, I suppose, and I suppose maybe he is leading. So, here I am. I often feel like I should get a prize for still following...selfishly, but truthfully...
hey, i don't want you to think that how i experience god is how you should. i think god is different to different people. so you may never experience some of the things i do, and vice versa.
as i was outside on my patio last night smoking and thinking/praying about this something came to mind. thought i would share it, don't know if it helps you in the least or not...
let god be god
let you be you
and stop worrying about what everyone else wants
Yes...that is really the biggest thing I am grappling with...the last part of your thought...not worrying about what everyone else wants. But, I have to say that hanging out here and getting to know everyone in our little blogosphere has really helped me with that!
Post a Comment